Tucker Max And Geoffrey Miller Hack The Manosphere

Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller have created a new blog: The Mating Grounds, which purports to teach men the truth about sex and dating. Here is the official story of how Mating Grounds was ideated:

At dinner, Geoff told Tucker’s how he’d heard of his books, and explained that he had to spend hours explaining to his nephews that they were not advice books.

Tucker “Well of course not, my books are just funny stories about the really stupid, ridiculous things I’ve done. Why do they think they’re advice???”

Geoff “Well, they’re all 14-20, and your writing is the only frank and honest thing they’ve ever read on sex and dating. There is nothing else that talks about these issues the way you do. In the absence of that, they use what they have, and they take your books as advice.”

Tucker “That’s fucking stupid, it’s not designed as advice! There must be something that explains sex and dating in a clear, informational way.”

Geoff “I have looked, quite extensively, for a book or something that honestly and frankly addresses the entire spectrum of sex, dating, women and relationships, especially for men. I have never found one. I have to spend hours answering their very basic questions about these issues.”

Tucker “No fucking way. This has to exist.”

Geoff “It doesn’t. I’ve looked.”

Geoff could not have looked very hard, certainly not as far as his own Twitter stream, if he managed to miss the Red Pill blogosphere. Max and Miller are a pair of smart guys, whatever else you might think of them. I’m skeptical that they failed to stumble across the Manosphere in their market research.

They also chose to call attention to their omission: “It doesn’t. I’ve looked.”

People got offended. Danger and Play, Sploosh, Dr. Illusion, Free Northerner, and others, got riled up and implored their readers to share their rage. Who the hell are Tucker Max and Geoff Miller to say that this community doesn’t exist? Who are these fucking guys, claiming with a straight face that there is no existing useful source of information on sex and dating for young men?

The Manosphere got angry. We got so angry, we just couldn’t resist hate-clicking, and hate-reading, and hate-sharing…


Perhaps you’ve caught on by now. If not, let me spell it out:

Put yourself in the shoes of Max and Miller, working on this new project.

You have a very specific target market: young and intelligent English-speaking men, who are interested in improving their relationships with women. You desperately want access to these men.

You note that the “Manosphere” or “The Red Pill” or whatever the hell they call themselves, contains hundreds of thousands of men who match your profile perfectly. Perhaps you are emboldened by this fledgling community’s generally low standard of design, internet marketing savvy, and centralization. The only question is: How do you gain access to their audience?

Well, you could buy an ad on Return Of Kings. You could email the prominent Red Pill bloggers, hat in hand, and request the addition of The Mating Grounds to their blogrolls. (While thinking: They still have blog rolls? What is this, 2008?)

If only there were a faster, easier way, to immediately get on the radar of the entire Red Pill community.

Remember, Tucker Max is good friends with the very smart guy who literally wrote the book on hacking the 21st century news cycle.

And here’s the best part. By “exposing” the gambit, all I’ve done is made it an even more compelling story. You feel intrigued right now. You want to share and discuss this post. Maybe you’re impressed by Max/Miller/Holiday, or maybe you just want to do some more hate-linking.  Either way, it serves their goals.

The Future of the Manosphere

Two things could happen now. Either The Mating Grounds will suck, or it won’t.

If The Mating Grounds tries to water itself down, it will suck. If Max and Miller try to build a useful, but still politically correct website, it will become The Good Mangina Project, redux. It will have some modest initial success, which it will owe to the big names attached to it, and then it will fade into obscurity.

Or – and here’s what I hope and predict – The Mating Grounds could be awesome. Max and Miller could realize that there is no bargaining with political correctness, that they will never earn the approval of the milquetoast deniers of human nature, and that their path forward is to embrace truth unconditionally. If they do this, I predict that they will bring some core Red Pill truths into the mainstream consciousness, and help millions of men.

But where does that leave the Manosphere market incumbents? Well, if your blog can’t survive in a market that now includes The Mating Grounds, maybe your blog doesn’t deserve to survive. Does that bother you?

Dear Red Pill blogger, if you write to educate and inspire the young men of our generation to greater heights, you should be relieved that others are taking up your burden. If your blog is a conduit for self-expression, or a tool for tracking and organizing your own thoughts, The Mating Grounds will not interfere with either of those goals.

However, if you write – as I suspect many do – out of a prideful desire to be regarded as an authority figure, out of a hunger for the anonymous status boost of being regarded as a “guru” by other men, then The Mating Grounds is an existential threat to your blog traffic, and the ego you derive from it. Which is fine by me.

Personally, I’m not worried in the slightest. I participate in the Red Pill community because I would occasionally feel extremely lonely without it. There are only so many twenty-something biohacking entrepreneur pick-up artist reactionaries out their in the world, and writing this blog is the only means I have of reaching out to them.

I’m also not worried about the fate of my favourite blogs. The best Manosphere authorities will continue to dominate their niches. Tucker Max’s testosterone ebook is a good basic introduction, but it’s nothing compared to the in-depth knowledge of Danger and Play and Pill Scout. As well, there will always be room in my RSS reader for men like Maverick Traveler, 30 Days To X, Laid NYC, and Kid Strangelove, who write honestly about their experiences walking the same path that I’m on.

Ultimately, there is no point in getting upset over the claim that The Mating Grounds owes nothing to the Red Pill Blogosphere. If Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller really are doing something original, something that truly does not yet exist, then I wish them all the best. If they are merely planning a PC repackaging of basic Red Pill truths, they will fade into obscurity soon enough, with or without my condemnation.


  1. Dr. Illusion says

    This is pretty much what I said a week or so ago. After my initial outrage, I actually talked to the guy and decided not to worry about it. Tucker asked me to wait until after the launch to judge whether or not his content is original, and I’m willing to do so.

    And since I make no money off my blog, I’m not worried about him stealing my traffic. My dedicated reader base isn’t going anywhere, and the transients are no big loss.

    But I think the “rage phase” everyone was going through the last few weeks is over, and now they are in “Must quit all social.media to be cool like everyone else” phase. You’re behind the times. Write a post about deleting your Twitter, bro.

    • Frost_25 says

      Hah. I actually do have a post on information management, social media, the internet, etc in the drafts folder, partially inspired by all the Twitter rage-quits.

  2. 'Reality' Doug says

    What a mature and civilized take on the whole thing. You must feel isolated. I say that for no reason whatsoever.

    I think the Manosphere is stagnated, maybe storing up psychic energy for a growth spurt. I think a certain top-shelf blogger has taken the ‘Sphere as far as he can, like an entrepreneur that can’t grow a business past a certain point. What you wrote about was blue-pill thinking in the ‘Sphere. There is plenty of it. Unlike in the movie, there is no one-and-done red pill. People mentally bank on their understandings by simplistic analogies to take the low-hanging fruit made available from others. It’s so low, it’s on the ground: no thinking required.

    It would be a shame if the Manosphere does not evolve. I don’t think Tucker Max is the future either, but we shall see.

    P.S. The subjunctive uses ‘were’ instead of ‘was’, to show imagination of something that is not actually true. I hold the writing here to a high standard based on past performance. :)

    • Frost_25 says

      Thanks for the correction.

      The way I see it, there are many tasks for Red Pill writers to take on. Max and Miller are, at the very least, using their big names and marketing savvy to sell basic sexual strategy to average young men. Maybe – hopefully – they’re going deeper.

      The future of the Manosphere is anyone’s guess. I think we’re at a point where Red Pill guys need to start meeting up in real life, forming gangs Jack Donovan-style, starting businesses, building their lives together, etc, with the eventual goal of overthrowing liberal democracy. Or at least, picking up the pieces when it collapses.

  3. Danger & Play Blog says

    Calling something “marketing” is trying to put lipstick on a pig.

    I get that it’s marketing. I understand marketing. I know why they did what they did.

    I am not worried about competition. They aren’t competition. They are in a different niche (“game” and I am not in that niche) and their reach will be huge.

    Or it will be at first; then it will fall off a cliff, as they will find that people don’t want their tepid half-truths.

    None of that changes one undeniable fact: What they did was scummy.

    They got called out for it by some.

    This was a major moment and most did not seize the day. Most revealed themselves to be cowards and boot lickers.

    It was a reminder why I don’t play team sports. You just can’t count on other men to do the right thing as most men would rather get attention and be “liked” by a “celebrity” than stand up on their own two feet.

    • Frost_25 says

      If Max and Miller are going to create a resource that packages Red Pill knowledge in a way that appeals to millions of men, than their claim is correct: Nothing like that currently exists.

      The Red Pill blogosphere has done great things, but we have not created
      an accessible and actionable resource for average guys to use to
      immediately change their lives.

      Hell I would argue that the Thumotic Lifestyle Guide is currently the best comprehensive introduction to basic Red Pill concepts. It’s a great resource and I get a ton of emails from guys who have changed their lives with it, but still: I wrote most of it when I was 25. Someone should do better.

      You have written that you’re not interested in helping average guys. Most of the best Manosphere writers are on the same page as you. Roissy is still running WP 2011 and refuses to monetize a site that could easily rake in six figures. Solomon is only available via PDFs. A lot of other great writers are on WordPress.com, blogspot, etc, which makes them inaccessible to casual readers who have been trained by experience to equate bad design with bad content.

      Consider the typical guy, 100-120 IQ, fairly extroverted, zero intellectual foundation beyond what he received from a US public school. He’s not going to spend hundreds of hours reading blog posts from 2008, reviewing the posting history of the best RVF members, getting a deep understanding of evolutionary psychology, persuasion, NLP.

      That market is 90% of literate North American men. Presently, there is nothing in the Manosphere that appeals to them. The Manosphere will always be the top of the intellectual food chain, going where no one else is willing to go. But we don’t have mass appeal.

      I think you may also be pissed at Max and Miller because you think they will be skimming Red Pill blogs for content/ideas and passing them off as their own.

      But, Geoffrey Miller literally wrote the book (the best one at least) on the application of ev psych to human sexual behaviour. Tucker Max is famous for fratire short stories, but beneath that, he was putting out some incredible content on his forum back in 2002-2005. I would be very surprised to catch them re-hashing Manosphere content with no added value.

      • Samseau says

        “If Max and Miller are going to create a resource that packages Red Pill knowledge in a way that appeals to millions of men, than their claim is correct: Nothing like that currently exists.”


  4. says

    It looks like the way they want to use this is to be the “gateway drug” to the red pill society.

    They’ll get a bit of traffic, but if they choose to uphold political correctness, their viewers will eventually be lead to the best of the red pill community, where they find more truth and value.

    If that ends up being the case, the real leaders in the community will benefit.

  5. SexyIsntSexist says

    I run an academic discussion forum about human sexuality from a Darwinian perspective called darwinian gender studies. I’ve looked at a lot of “red pill” stuff and most, if not all, of the people who cite evolutionary psychology don’t know enough about it to do so. Miller is a highly respected Darwinian academic; he is also human and can do and say stupid things like we all can. That doesn’t invalidate a 20+ year academic career and his contribution to contemporary Darwinism.

    Both he and Max (especially Max) are maturing. Feminists and MRA’s focus on the battle of the sexes and appear intent on maintaining hostilities between the sexes – it’s a gravy train! – and vulnerable men and women are exploited by them equally. The cooperation of the sexes is a neglected area. Many men may want to learn how to pick up women, but we are a pair bonded species also, (men too!) and many men also want to learn how to access this kind of intimacy with a woman, to bond, have a friend and a long term partner without being ridiculed for it.

    This is the niche I think Max and Miller are aiming for. For people tired of the “sex war”.

  6. Danger & Play Blog says

    This post has always bugged me. You are not a loyal man. You do not stand by your friends. I ask that you not link to me or ever mention me again. I don’t need or want your page views or to be associated with you in any way.